About this episode
Is the West collapsing, or is the planet? Political commentator Konstantin Kisin and rebel economist Steve Keen go head-to-head on the biggest questions facing the West: immigration, the debt crisis, climate change, Trump, China and the future of AI.
Konstantin Kisin is a satirist, social commentator and author, best known as the co-host of the Triggernometry podcast and the author of ‘An Immigrant’s Love Letter to the West’. Born in the Soviet Union and now based in Britain, he has become one of the most prominent voices on free speech, culture and the rise of populism.
Steve Keen is an economist, author and one of the most vocal critics of mainstream economic thinking. A former Professor of Economics, he is the author of several books including ‘Debunking Economics’ and ‘The New Economics: A Manifesto’, and is currently writing his upcoming book ‘How Economists Will Destroy Capitalism’. He is known for his work on private debt, financial crises and the failures of conventional economic models, and for correctly warning of the 2008 financial crash.
They debate:
◼ Why almost everything governments tell you about debt and borrowing could be wrong
◼ Whether a socialist government could actually be good for the economy
◼ Why AI could quietly strip away human free will
◼ Why Konstantin believes mass immigration is pushing the West toward civil unrest
◼ Why Steve thinks climate change, not politics, is the real threat that dwarfs everything else
Chapters
00:00:00 Intro
00:02:05 We're on the Road to Civil Unrest
00:08:04 Where This Leads: Unrest and Violence
00:11:11 I Grew Up in the Soviet Union
00:12:12 Steve Keen: Capitalism Is About to Fail
00:20:49 "We're Not Spending Enough"
00:23:58 Should Britain Drill in the North Sea?
00:28:39 "You Can't Defend Yourself Against This"
00:32:48 The World Government Admission
00:36:55 "Brace for Impact" - Climate Change Is Here
00:40:03 "It's Too Late" - What Breakdown Looks Like
00:45:11 The Trap Trump Walked Into
00:48:49 The Famine He Says Is Coming
00:50:53 How Does Trump Get Out of This?
00:53:35 Does America Need a Socialist President?
00:55:37 Why China Works and the Soviet Union Didn't
01:01:10 "Would You Prefer the Chinese System?" — "Yes"
01:05:09 Will Andy Burnham Change Britain's Trajectory?
01:11:00 Wokeism: A Hierarchy of Oppression
01:13:30 AI, Mass Unemployment and The Hunger Games
01:17:21 Best Case a Pet, Worst Case a Cow
01:20:54 Can You Program Love Into an AI?
01:26:07 Nobody Can Stop It So How Do You Live?
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Episode summary
This AI-generated Shortcast summary may omit nuance. Use the original episode when context or exact wording matters.
Constantine, with all this happening at once, what genuinely worries you most about where the world is heading?
I wrote that we’d see left populism alongside right populism, including the harder right in Europe, and that is where the West has gone. Economic flatlining, plus cultural and demographic anxiety around large-scale migration, are driving people apart. When voters think their political class cannot control the border, tougher slogans become powerful. Add weak growth and instability, and the chance of violence rises. I hate confident forecasts, but without a course correction, civil disorder is a real destination.
If someone were poor and believed crossing a border could transform life for their family, wouldn’t empathy matter before we judge them?
I don’t blame people for wanting a better life; I moved countries myself. But I came legally because rules mattered. The question is whether a system works. We can acknowledge Western interventions that destabilised countries people flee, while accepting that Britain, Spain, Italy and the rest must enforce their own borders.
I think unrest is coming too, but migration is not at the centre. Both Soviet-style communism and capitalism have failed in different ways. Economists have dangerously minimised climate damage, treating it as a future dent in output rather than a threat to the productive system. The weather is already telling us something.
Britain should borrow to build productive capacity: housing, transport, nuclear and cheap electricity. But borrowing to cover past borrowing, while making low-paid work less worthwhile than benefits, is different. America is harsher for poor people, but its business culture and labour flexibility help it move faster.
Britain’s problem is spending too little on long-term foundations. Privatise water and you get polluted rivers, no reservoirs and short-term financial logic. Government should provide infrastructure that lets private activity happen. China built transport, education and energy capacity at scale; that is a major reason it outperformed.
That takes us to energy and climate. Should Britain drill in the North Sea, and can a country responsible for a tiny share of emissions change the global outcome?
India and China will account for most future emissions because they want prosperity, as they should. Britain cannot alter the planet alone by making power scarcer and pricier. We need plentiful affordable energy, including nuclear, and flood defences and adaptation.
Adaptation is nowhere near enough. If the Atlantic overturning circulation fails, Europe could face an average drop of around ten degrees Celsius. We cannot even handle leaves on railway tracks, for God’s sake. Energy use and output are tightly linked; averting this means radically cutting consumption through worldwide coordination. We are competing nation states, so I don’t think it will happen. We are close to the wall, not gently climbing a hill.
A global authoritarian system that makes everyone poorer is not going to arrive. I won’t endorse economic suicide as a symbolic act that does not solve the problem. The practical route is technology: clean energy people adopt because it beats the alternative.
We then turned to the Middle East. Constantin, has the conflict around the Strait of Hormuz become an enormous strategic error for Trump?
From what I hear from people with access to the administration, Trump seems to have walked into a trap after earlier successes made people feel invulnerable. Iran can disrupt oil, gas, helium and fertiliser. Tehran has time; America has elections. My fear is this drags on, boosts prices, helps Russia finance its war, and leaves Trump selling an ugly deal as a win.
I expect serious food shortages if the blockage persists, though timing depends on inventories. Australian friends tell me fertiliser costs have left major areas unplanted. If a country that normally grows many times its food needs produces far less, that food is missing somewhere else. America was sold a pup. The lasting answer is to stop interfering in the Middle East.
Would a democratic-socialist turn in America offer a corrective, or repeat the failures Constantin saw in the Soviet Union?
I’d take almost anything over Trump’s radical private self-reliance. Public goods do not build themselves. America needs infrastructure, energy, water and education supporting a thriving private sector. China is not the Soviet Union; it has competition among firms and regions alongside state provision, even if political speech is more constrained.
I grew up in the Soviet Union, so I’m not relaxed about rebranding communism as democratic socialism. Remove rewards for unusually productive people and replace market signals with central direction, and you get stagnation and shared poverty. China’s trains do not erase repression. Totalitarian systems can build impressive things; that is not a sufficient defence.
We finished on AI, which may reorder every argument about work, wealth and power. Steve, what does a good outcome look like?
The dream is machines doing drudgery while people receive a universal high income, almost Star Trek-like. But if robots eliminate jobs, people without capital lose purchasing power. A purely private model becomes Hunger Games. Government must ensure a basic income, while taxation prevents spending creating runaway inflation. We unleash systems and discover their consequences afterwards.
If AI genuinely does all work, redistribution becomes unavoidable. A handful of owners cannot keep every productive asset without eventually finding their heads metaphorically—and perhaps not metaphorically—on spikes. For now: AI will not replace you; a person using it better might. Learn the tools. But the larger danger is creating a mind superior to ours. Best case, pets; worst case, cattle.
I still think public scrutiny can matter, and AI may become a huge electoral issue as entry-level work changes. But most people will blame whichever politician is in front of them, not the technology itself.
Exactly. Nobody knows how this ends, and no one can truly control it. So beneath the catastrophe talk is a spiritual question: how do you spend the limited time you have? Enjoy your family, do meaningful work, serve people around you. Clean energy is a problem humanity may innovate through. AI is unprecedented. What I can control is what I do when I leave this studio.
I’m finishing a book arguing that economists have badly misunderstood climate change, which is why their damage estimates, and our response, are so trivial.
And I should correct my climate figure: I dropped a zero, and that was my mistake. People in public life should own errors. I’m grateful we could correct the record—and despite all the disagreement, this was a useful conversation.