About this episode
Dr. Debra Lieberman is an evolutionary psychologist, professor, and researcher. Why don’t we feel sexual attraction toward our siblings or close family? Evolution seems to have hard-wired the brain to prevent inbreeding, a pattern shared with many other animals. So how does this mechanism work, and what are the moral or ethical arguments surrounding incest? Expect to learn why evolution has designed you to not want sex with your sister, how animals actually detect who their relatives are, what the high level explanation is for why humans don’t want sex with their kin, the moral argument if it is okay if two adult siblings had consensual sex, how big the actual genetic risk is for first cousins, what crying adn tears actually communicate from an evolutionary perspective and much more… Timestamps: (0:00) Why Don’t We Want to Have Sex With Our Siblings? (7:57) What Triggers Our Incest Avoidance Mechanism? (19:04) Is Incest Disgust a Moral Pressure? (27:19) How Only Children Make Sense of Incest (31:11) Why Is Incest P**n So Popular? (37:19) Why Do We Cry? (52:53) What Happens When No One is Watching (58:07) Why We Use Tears to Convey Emotions (01:06:30) Where to Find Debra Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: https://chriswillx.com/deals New pricing since recording: Function is now just $365, plus get $25 off at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, and more when you first subscribe at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: https://chriswillx.com/books Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman - Get In Touch: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Episode summary
Why don’t people want sex with their siblings, and how on earth do animals even tell who their kin are without language?
Wild way to kick off, but yes—evolution built a kin-detection system that shows up in childhood and usually keeps us from mating with close relatives, while also steering altruism toward them; animals rely on cues like litter, scent, or place, and humans map similar cues rather than labels.
So the same kin detector that says be generous also says keep your pants on?
Exactly—your brain forms a quiet estimate of relatedness that feeds both how warm-hearted you are and how sexually avoidant you are, which is a neat bit of efficiency.
How do the cues work with siblings, adoptions, and edge cases?
My work shows two potent cues: seeing your mother invest in a newborn tags that baby as your sibling, and years of co-residence under the same caregivers tighten the tag; Taiwan’s minor marriage is a natural experiment where raised-together pairs later married under strong norms but had fewer kids, more divorce, and more affairs.
Is there a Westermarck window with clear start and stop?
No crisp cutoff—starting from birth matters most, and each year together reduces uncertainty, while late exposure works but weakly.
What about absentee dads, donor-conceived half-siblings, and that odd attraction some report on reunion?
Fathers aren’t recognized via co-residence in the same way, and without early cues the aversion often never forms; shared genes can mean shared tastes, so reunited kin can feel unusually compatible without any built-in disgust to counter it.
And the lab story where a sibling pair has consequence-free sex—why do people still call it wrong?
That’s moral dumbfounding; I suspect many won’t risk sounding pro-incest in a room full of observers, which is more about social risk than harm, and we’ve under-tested that with true anonymity.
You had guys imagine kissing a sister; women hit the disgust ceiling, men varied, and as an only child I don’t get the same visceral recoil.
Women’s costs of reproduction make them stricter, while men show wider spread; overall, women are more disgust-sensitive, and people without opposite-sex siblings often don’t map the scenario onto kin, so the gut aversion is muted.
If this disgust is so strong, why is incest porn massive?
It’s taboo framing on two naked strangers, not real kin; my hunch is the more opposite-sex siblings you have, the less appealing it is—someone should run that study.
Where do cousins sit?
Risk crashes outside the nuclear family—siblings and parent–child are highest, cousins are far lower, which is why cousin marriage is widespread, though shared upbringing could still dial up aversion; huge datasets could finally map the sensitive periods cleanly.
Switching gears: why would leaking water from your face be adaptive?
Gratitude research pulled me into tears as a signal of social value—tears help low-leverage people broadcast high cost or high value, nudging others to stop imposing costs or to keep doing something good; kids and women cry more because leverage differs.
What about crocodile tears—and that odd dance of hiding and showing when you cry?
Genuine tears often come with a wish to conceal, while manipulators display them to steer you; in groups, women sometimes pair anger with tears when they’re outgunned, a way to set limits without force.
Men silently sort hierarchy fast—formidability, status, resources—nonverbal tells are everywhere.
Right, the nonverbal layer carries a lot of that story.
Why do we cry alone at clips or thoughts if tears are social?
Our minds simulate, and storytelling triggers empathy, so the same circuitry fires even without an audience; people who lack empathy don’t tend to react that way.
At funerals, who are the tears for?
In ancestral life you were never truly alone, so tears would signal need; my focus is that tears tag events as high cost or high value more than they cleanly fit every context.
Why tears specifically—they’re costly and visible, but why not some other signal?
They’re front and center, likely piggybacked on reflex tearing, and they briefly impair vision, which helps make them credible; plenty there to test.
Kids cry with skinned knees, adults mostly don’t—what shifts?
For kids it recruits help; adults often swap tears for curses unless the pain carries an emotional load, so context matters.
Breakups unleash tears—could that be recalibration, not just a message to others?
Maybe—during heartbreak you’re ratcheting down someone’s value, and I’ve wondered if tears dump attachment chemistry as part of that reset; like voices, tears likely serve both other-calibrating and self-calibrating roles.
Deb, you’re fantastic—where should people dig into your work on kinship, morality, and all the rest?
Hit the Center for Evolutionary Psychology for papers on kinship, altruism, morality, and more, and keep an eye out for my textbook late twenty six to early twenty seven; I’m also building MediaBite so people can buy single news and journal articles without subscriptions, aiming for late twenty six.
I’ve put together a free list of one hundred impactful reads with notes and links at chriswillx.com/books if you want great fiction, non-fiction, and real-life stories.