About this episode
Donald Robertson is a cognitive-behavioral psychotherapist, an author and an expert on ancient philosophy. Why are we so anxious in the safest time in human history? Our brains evolved for real danger, predators, hunger, survival, not notifications and deadlines. So what are the modern tools for calming our primitive nervous system in a modern world? And is the answer something our ancestors already knew? Expect to learn what Donald wishes more people knew about anxiety, how it works and what causes it, how CBT might be the best therapy to combat chronic anxiety, what the main problem with the major psychoanalytic theorists is, why CBT is just a modern extension of Stoicism, why modern American culture has become extraordinarily passive aggressive, how people can keep their life in alignment with their values and much more… Timestamps: (0:00) How Anxiety Actually Works (15:40) Is Self-Help Actually Helpful? (25:55) Why Avoidance Makes Anxiety Worse (39:22) Useful Skills to Tackle Your Anxiety (48:47) Top Down vs Bottom Up: What’s the Best Approach? (01:03:08) Were the Stoics the Original Psychotherapists? (01:11:14) Why People Fear Exposure Therapy (01:26:42) Should We Prioritise Targeting Anger? (01:41:01) Why Donald Quit Psychodynamic Therapy (01:52:24) Where to Find Donald Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: https://chriswillx.com/deals Get 10% discount on all Gymshark products at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM10) Get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy App at https://rpstrength.com/modernwisdom Get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and your first month for free at https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: https://chriswillx.com/books Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: lnkfi.re/SN-Huberm - Get In Touch: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Episode summary
What do you wish more people understood about how anxiety works and what really causes it?
I push back on the idea that emotions are pressure that needs venting; they’re built from thoughts, images, actions, and memories, more like a recipe.
The most reliable fix for fear is exposure; with a simple animal phobia, your heart rate rockets in seconds, but if you stay put, it drops toward normal, especially if someone helps you resist the urge to escape.
Repeat it over days and the spikes get smaller and fade, with very little relapse unless something genuinely bad happens.
Social anxiety is trickier because it’s about fear of being judged, so we design safe embarrassments and stick with them; success takes longer but is still strong.
I picture soldiers hardening to battle, then ask what happens when life keeps proving the fear right, like with neglect or abuse.
If danger is real, anxiety is warranted; when it isn’t, it often persists because of experiential avoidance and safety behaviors that block emotional processing.
Hiding symptoms, over‑preparing, or trying to breathe it away can morph into anxiety about anxiety and stop habituation from happening.
Panic shows the spiral—misreading a racing heart as deadly ramps fear fast—so the move is to tolerate and normalize the sensations and drop the catastrophe story.
That sounds a lot like acceptance and commitment therapy; what does ACT add to CBT for anxiety?
ACT is a third wave of CBT, not a brand‑new thing; the field drifted toward acceptance and mindfulness over decades.
Clinicians mostly converge on similar principles, and people who see anxiety as inherently bad tend to fare worse over time.
We’re drenched in self‑help yet distress rises, partly because tools get stripped of nuance and misapplied without guidance.
Maybe modern life itself amplifies anxiety and self‑help is a patch on a modern problem.
Life was scary before police too, but social media likely adds fuel; we now process threats abstractly, which feeds worry more than it builds real‑world mastery.
Worry is a looping what‑if monologue that keeps anxiety humming for hours without resolving anything.
What are the worst ways to deal with anxiety?
Avoidance is the big trap; it blocks learning, steals practice time, narrows your life, and makes triggers more potent.
Distraction, suppression, alcohol, compulsive soothing, and over‑preparing often masquerade as coping, and worry itself is cognitive avoidance.
Physiology backs it: worry cranks muscle tension but not heart rate like phobias or panic, which suggests it dodges full emotional processing.
A simple fix is worry postponement—catch it early, jot the topic, schedule a daily worry window, and return then—which often halves worry within weeks.
It’s state management: you solve things later when your prefrontal brain is online, the same way you’d wait until morning instead of ruminating at two a.m.
What if intrusive thoughts won’t let people postpone and just bulldoze back in?
Train metacognitive skills like cognitive defusion so you look at thoughts rather than through them.
Say, “Right now I notice I’m having the thought…,” or use your name to create distance, then commit to revisiting it later with full attention so it’s not avoidance.
What’s the move when I know it’s irrational, but the body still screams?
Some lower arousal with relaxation; others catch lightning‑fast automatic thoughts or dispute deeper, implicit beliefs that drive the reaction.
Classic relaxation has a paradox—the harder you try, the tighter you get—so progressive tension‑and‑release helps, and it works best when you relax into acceptance rather than try to erase anxiety.
How do you see bottom‑up nervous‑system work versus top‑down for worry and anxiety?
Both can help, but deeper cognitive shifts may last longer than regulation skills people often drop; Ellis targeted rigid demands that keep anxiety alive.
Why is “not just how you feel, but how you think” so crucial?
Emotions are entwined with beliefs, so cognitive tools expand your options and reduce reliance on workarounds like alcohol.
With anger, coping skills help, but reductionist labels like “he’s just X” or “I’m useless” wreck problem‑solving and feed dehumanization in history and in self‑talk.
Are beliefs and feelings meaningfully different?
Definitions are messy, but emotions usually have strong cognitive threads; the Stoics even defined them by judgments, and the key is seeing what’s automatic versus what you can influence.
Accept the involuntary parts—like a pounding heart or an intrusive thought—while taking charge of what you can steer, like staying with the cat or postponing the worry.
Simple, business‑card‑size techniques work because people actually use them.
Some gold‑standard methods still have high dropout; exposure and response prevention for OCD is powerful but very aversive.
So intensives or retreats could boost compliance.
Getting out of the therapy room helps; I’d run real‑world shame attacks like spilling coffee, asking strangers odd questions, or even the banana‑on‑a‑string walk to loosen social fear.
From eye of newt to string and banana, the old recipes weren’t that far off.
Ancients used similar drills; the Stoics distinguished quick, automatic “proto‑emotions” from full passions, and the Cynics ran shamelessness exercises long before modern CBT.
Graveyard, prostitutes, and a bottle dragged on a string — that one’s burned into memory.
Here’s the big pattern I see: people collect skills from self help, but they do not use them when life gets loud.
You need ongoing self observation through the day so your tools do not stay in the journal or on the mat.
The Stoics called it prosokhe and paired it with voluntary hardship and imagining adversity so you are ready.
I lived that split for years with long morning routines.
The trick is taking it off the cushion with simple cues you can actually use.
I am writing a book on anger, and CBT has strong results here, with around seventy percent of people showing meaningful improvement across large randomized controlled trials.
It often beats outcomes for depression or trauma, so targeting anger first can build momentum and prevent bigger damage.
Yet anger gets ignored because it is externalizing; when I am furious I blame you, so people rarely seek help until a crisis pushes them.
On a week‑long retreat I learned I was angrier than I looked, and a story about a nine year old crying in the bathtub showed how sadness brings comfort while anger makes people pull away.
Aaron Beck found anger often covers hurt, shame, or fear, and once people track thoughts closely they usually notice the earlier feeling.
Anger gives an illusion of control and forces attention outward, which distracts from pain without changing anything.
It seems like two traps: some of us dodge anger when it is needed, and others use anger to hide what we really feel.
So catch the first flicker, name and allow the underlying feeling, and sit with it for a short pause.
Give it thirty seconds so natural reappraisal can happen; if you launch into blame, you miss that window.
Why did you walk away from psychodynamic and psychoanalytic work after investing so much time?
I became disenchanted, from reading a serious paper that tried to explain golf as a sublimated anal ritual to realizing how little of that tradition rested on evidence.
Freud built sweeping claims without clinical research, and much of what I studied felt detached from reality.
Even Dylan Evans, whose Lacanian dictionary we used, later wrote that his own practice was not helping clients and he abandoned it, which echoed my doubts.
CBT clicked, and as someone who was once very angry, Stoicism and CBT became the path that actually changed my life.
The right framework finds you, and you back the one that truly moved you; when is your anger book landing?
I am taking my time, likely a year to a year and a half, blending Stoic insights with solid psychology; Gallup finds Americans report anger about twenty five percent more often than Canadians and Brits and three times more than the Japanese.
Anger is rising, and online anonymity lowers inhibition, fuels aggression, and makes honest disagreement feel impossible.
Civil conversation feels like ancient history, but this was brilliant.
Donald Robertson, ladies and gentlemen.